40 years or so ago, I learned to fly, at least a bit. I did some solo
circuits in gliders. I would like to come back to flying, and I was
wondering about whether to learn on powered or unpowered planes?

If I learn on gliders, will this be any help towards getting a PPL? I
apprecaite that it's all good experience, but I have a feeling that the PPL
only counts hours in a powered plane. Is that right?

Also, any recommendations for places to learn to fly, powered or unpowered,
near North London?

Finally, I am very overweight (over 18 stone). Does that rule out gliders
unless I lose quite a bit of weight?

Thanks very much.

GB wrote:
> 40 years or so ago, I learned to fly, at least a bit. I did some solo
> circuits in gliders. I would like to come back to flying, and I was
> wondering about whether to learn on powered or unpowered planes?
>
> If I learn on gliders, will this be any help towards getting a PPL? I
> apprecaite that it's all good experience, but I have a feeling that the PPL
> only counts hours in a powered plane. Is that right?
>
> Also, any recommendations for places to learn to fly, powered or unpowered,
> near North London?
>
> Finally, I am very overweight (over 18 stone). Does that rule out gliders
> unless I lose quite a bit of weight?
>
> Thanks very much.
>
>
Do some thinking up front about your ultimate goals, then pick a path.
Flying in general is costly so you want to put your money where it will
benefit you the most in the long run.
Gliders are fine and will teach you a great deal about flying but not
that much more than you can learn in a powered aircraft with a good
instructor.
252lbs is a lot of weight to go gliding with. It's also a lot of weight
for a light powered airplane. You might want to consider losing some of
it before entering either program.
Dudley Henriques

On Sat, 7 Jul 2007 17:23:32 +0100, "GB" >
wrote in >:

>40 years or so ago, I learned to fly, at least a bit. I did some solo
>circuits in gliders. I would like to come back to flying, and I was
>wondering about whether to learn on powered or unpowered planes?

The answer to that question depends on what sort of flying you want to
do once you have your airmans certificate, and how much you can afford
to spend on flying. Glider instruction can be very inexpensive if you
join a soaring club, and you will get some fundamental experience in
aerodynamics and meteorology that powered flyers only get a smattering
of. However, you will be mostly limited to summer days, and costs
will be about as low as possible.

Powered flight is less of a sport, and can be useful for air touring,
but the cost of flight instruction and aircraft operation is
significantly more that soaring.

>If I learn on gliders, will this be any help towards getting a PPL?

It should make your transition to powered flight significantly easier,
if that's what you meant. Actually there are several private pilot
licenses: Single Engine Land and sea, Multiengine, Glider, Lighter
Than Air, ...

>I apprecaite that it's all good experience, but I have a feeling that the PPL
>only counts hours in a powered plane. Is that right?

A Private Glider certificate requires instruction in gliders.

>Also, any recommendations for places to learn to fly, powered or unpowered,
>near North London?

I'll cross post this follow up article to the uk.rec.aviation and
rec.aviation.soaring newsgroups, and you should receive some replies
from knowledgeable folks in that location.

>Finally, I am very overweight (over 18 stone). Does that rule out gliders
>unless I lose quite a bit of weight?

I'll leave that question to the airmen in rec.aviation.soaring.

>Thanks very much.
>

You may want to consider inquiring at one of the soaring advocacy
groups like the Soaring Society of America; you'll find a lot of good
information on their web site: http://www.ssa.org/ . I can also
recommend the Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association web site for more
power oriented information: http://www.aopa.org/ . Unfortunately, I
unable to provide information for the similar European organizations.

"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 7 Jul 2007 17:23:32 +0100, "GB" >
> wrote in >:
>
>>40 years or so ago, I learned to fly, at least a bit. I did some solo
>>circuits in gliders. I would like to come back to flying, and I was
>>wondering about whether to learn on powered or unpowered planes?
>
<...>>Also, any recommendations for places to learn to fly, powered or
unpowered,
>>near North London?
>

I assume you mean London in the UK and not in Canada or whatever other
contries have cities named "London" :-)

British Gliding Association http://www.gliding.co.uk/

Club locations http://www.gliding.co.uk/findaclub/ukmap.htm

There are more gliding clubs in the UK than you can shake a stick at...

But if you did mean London Canada: http://www.sac.ca/ :-)

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

In rec.aviation.soaring Larry Dighera > wrote:
> On Sat, 7 Jul 2007 17:23:32 +0100, "GB" >
> wrote in >:
>
>>40 years or so ago, I learned to fly, at least a bit. I did some solo
>>circuits in gliders. I would like to come back to flying, and I was
>>wondering about whether to learn on powered or unpowered planes?
>
> The answer to that question depends on what sort of flying you want to
> do once you have your airmans certificate, and how much you can afford
> to spend on flying. Glider instruction can be very inexpensive if you
> join a soaring club, and you will get some fundamental experience in
> aerodynamics and meteorology that powered flyers only get a smattering
> of.

I would say that if you are planning to fly purely for fun, go for
gliders. If you imagine using it for useful things (or if "fun" for you
means using the plane to go on vacation somewhere) then go for powered.
(Full disclosure, I'm a glider pilot.)

> However, you will be mostly limited to summer days, and costs
> will be about as low as possible.

I must object to this, as some of the most spectacular soaring can happen
in the dead of winter, in the form of ridge and wave soaring. I don't know
how things are in the UK, but here in Virginia even for thermal soaring
the definition of "summer" is pretty loose, and really includes a great
deal of the spring and fall.

But the general theme is still true; gliders are much more
weather-dependent. You can fly in the same weather as a VFR powered plane,
but you can't *stay up* and therefore make it really fun on a lot of those
days.

--
Michael Ash
Rogue Amoeba Software

On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 18:34:35 -0500, Michael Ash >
wrote in >:

>You can fly in the same weather as a VFR powered plane,
>but you can't *stay up* and therefore make it really fun on a lot of those
>days.

Not to mention the nights. :-)

"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 18:34:35 -0500, Michael Ash >
> wrote in >:
>
>>You can fly in the same weather as a VFR powered plane,
>>but you can't *stay up* and therefore make it really fun on a lot of those
>>days.
>
> Not to mention the nights. :-)

Thanks to all who replied. You have helped me to make my mind up about one
thing. I am only interested in flying 'for fun', so I'll go the gliding
route. You seem to get a lot more time in the air for your money with a
glider. Now to tackle the weight issue.

You seem to get a lot more time in the air for your money with a
> glider. >
>

A lot more hanging about waiting to get a launch as well. I have never
really "got" gliding, being a die'd in the wool power chap. Too much down
time for me.

I'd recommend the NPPL M

David

"D" > wrote in
:

> You seem to get a lot more time in the air for your money with a
>> glider. >
>
> A lot more hanging about waiting to get a launch as well. I have
> never really "got" gliding, being a die'd in the wool power chap. Too
> much down time for me.
>
> I'd recommend the NPPL M
>
> David

My experience with soaring is that you are always doing something when you
are not flying. Socializing with club members is part of the experience,
and much more common in my experience than in power-plane flying clubs.

Right now I fly my own plane for pleasure, and occasionally for business,
but I look forward to the day when I can return to soaring. Flying to the
soaring club appears to be a good justification for owning a power plane
:-)

Rob

Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
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On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 13:07:03 -0400, Dudley Henriques
> wrote:

>252lbs is a lot of weight to go gliding with. It's also a lot of weight
>for a light powered airplane.

Lately we have been instructed NOT to fuel the Cubs after we are done
with them. It seems that both the instructors and the students are now
each approaching 200 pounds.

Body shape is also a consideration. I had a friend in that weight
range (250 lb) who wanted to take lessons, but the Cub was out of the
question because he couldn't get the stick back to full-stall.



Blue skies! -- Dan Ford

Claire Chennault and His American Volunteers, 1941-1942
forthcoming from HarperCollins www.flyingtigersbook.com

On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 18:34:35 -0500, Michael Ash >
wrote:

>I must object to this, as some of the most spectacular soaring can happen
>in the dead of winter,

Assuming that paragliding is similar, one of the great treats of
skiing at Aspen is watching the fliers play off the open slopes
(pistes to the lad in the UK) and forests.

I've never seen a hard-shell glider doing this, perhaps because the
airport is near 8,000 feet and the tow plane would really have its
work cut out for it.

The paragliders just ski down the mountain a few hundred feet, then
pop the chute out of a very large backpack.


Blue skies! -- Dan Ford

Claire Chennault and His American Volunteers, 1941-1942
forthcoming from HarperCollins www.flyingtigersbook.com

Cubdriver wrote:
> On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 18:34:35 -0500, Michael Ash >
> wrote:
>
>> I must object to this, as some of the most spectacular soaring can happen
>> in the dead of winter,
>
> Assuming that paragliding is similar, one of the great treats of
> skiing at Aspen is watching the fliers play off the open slopes
> (pistes to the lad in the UK) and forests.
>
> I've never seen a hard-shell glider doing this, perhaps because the
> airport is near 8,000 feet and the tow plane would really have its
> work cut out for it.

Glider towing is done out of Telluride and Buena Vista, both above 8000
feet, and Salida at 7000 feet. Tows out of Front Range glider
operations are routinely higher than 8000 feet as well.


Shawn

Cubdriver wrote:
> On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 13:07:03 -0400, Dudley Henriques
> > wrote:
>
>> 252lbs is a lot of weight to go gliding with. It's also a lot of weight
>> for a light powered airplane.
>
> Lately we have been instructed NOT to fuel the Cubs after we are done
> with them. It seems that both the instructors and the students are now
> each approaching 200 pounds.
>
> Body shape is also a consideration. I had a friend in that weight
> range (250 lb) who wanted to take lessons, but the Cub was out of the
> question because he couldn't get the stick back to full-stall.
>
>
>
> Blue skies! -- Dan Ford
>
> Claire Chennault and His American Volunteers, 1941-1942
> forthcoming from HarperCollins www.flyingtigersbook.com
This is the same procedure we used for our Cessna 150's way back when. I
made it each instructor's responsibility to insure that the schedule was
checked by radio after a flight to see if fuel would be an issue for the
next scheduled flight for a specific aircraft.

Naturally we didn't catch it every time as walk in's were frequent, but
it's surprising how many times we DID catch a W&B issue coming in for a
specific 150 and avoid it by not topping off the tanks.
In the J3, doing this could prove to be a very good policy indeed.
Dudley Henriques

On Jul 8, 6:23 pm, Peter > wrote:
> Rob McDonald > wrote
>
> >My experience with soaring is that you are always doing something when you
> >are not flying. Socializing with club members is part of the experience,
> >and much more common in my experience than in power-plane flying clubs.
>
> The social scene seems to be a way of life. It's OK if you want that,
> not OK if you don't. But one needs to be clear that this is the
> choice. I looked into gliding and it was obvious one would spend the
> whole weekend hanging around.

I think it depends on where you're flying. I understand that in the US
you can book lessons with instructors and turn up a set time, fly, and
go home again.

In the UK you get instruction for free but have to spend the whole day
on a cold field being bored for twenty minutes of flying. In theory
you can entertain yourself by doing some other jobs e.g. helping
launch gliders, driving winch retrieve etc. but if you do that people
will quickly come to expect it of you, and you'll rapidly find
yourself part of a small group which does all the work while everyone
else shirks.

And people wonder why UK gliding is shrinking faster than the
icecaps...

A couple of clubs have got their arses into gear and introduced
booking systems and are indeed reaping the results (more members
flying than they know what to do with), but those clubs are very much
in the minority (introducing something new implies the old system was
inadequate, and it's very hard for people to admit that they were
inadequate).


Dan

Dan G wrote:
> On Jul 8, 6:23 pm, Peter > wrote:
>> Rob McDonald > wrote
>>
>>> My experience with soaring is that you are always doing something when you
>>> are not flying. Socializing with club members is part of the experience,
>>> and much more common in my experience than in power-plane flying clubs.
>> The social scene seems to be a way of life. It's OK if you want that,
>> not OK if you don't. But one needs to be clear that this is the
>> choice. I looked into gliding and it was obvious one would spend the
>> whole weekend hanging around.
>
> I think it depends on where you're flying. I understand that in the US
> you can book lessons with instructors and turn up a set time, fly, and
> go home again.
>
> In the UK you get instruction for free but have to spend the whole day
> on a cold field being bored for twenty minutes of flying. In theory
> you can entertain yourself by doing some other jobs e.g. helping
> launch gliders, driving winch retrieve etc. but if you do that people
> will quickly come to expect it of you, and you'll rapidly find
> yourself part of a small group which does all the work while everyone
> else shirks.
>
> And people wonder why UK gliding is shrinking faster than the
> icecaps...
>
> A couple of clubs have got their arses into gear and introduced
> booking systems and are indeed reaping the results (more members
> flying than they know what to do with), but those clubs are very much
> in the minority (introducing something new implies the old system was
> inadequate, and it's very hard for people to admit that they were
> inadequate).
>
>
> Dan
>
Actually not a bad system for learning. Naturally it all depends on your
available time and the level of your incentive, but I'm one instructor
who believes strongly in the concept of "hanging around the field" as
one of the strongest learning tools in aviation.
Doing this, you soon pick up on how things are done and why. You also
see first hand the result of things tried, done, and not done. You learn
fairly fast just who knows what they are doign and who doesn't.
All in all, hanging around the field can pay off in HUGE unpaid for
dividends for those with the time to do it.
Dudley Henriques

"Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
...
> Cubdriver wrote:
>> On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 13:07:03 -0400, Dudley Henriques
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> 252lbs is a lot of weight to go gliding with. It's also a lot of weight
>>> for a light powered airplane.
>>
>> Lately we have been instructed NOT to fuel the Cubs after we are done
>> with them. It seems that both the instructors and the students are now
>> each approaching 200 pounds.
>>
>> Body shape is also a consideration. I had a friend in that weight
>> range (250 lb) who wanted to take lessons, but the Cub was out of the
>> question because he couldn't get the stick back to full-stall.
>>
>>
>>
>> Blue skies! -- Dan Ford
>>
>> Claire Chennault and His American Volunteers, 1941-1942 forthcoming from
>> HarperCollins www.flyingtigersbook.com
> This is the same procedure we used for our Cessna 150's way back when. I
> made it each instructor's responsibility to insure that the schedule was
> checked by radio after a flight to see if fuel would be an issue for the
> next scheduled flight for a specific aircraft.
>
> Naturally we didn't catch it every time as walk in's were frequent, but
> it's surprising how many times we DID catch a W&B issue coming in for a
> specific 150 and avoid it by not topping off the tanks.
> In the J3, doing this could prove to be a very good policy indeed.
> Dudley Henriques

And in the 152 with long range tanks, you could climb to practice
altitude quicker.

Al G

> A lot more hanging about waiting to get a launch as well. I have never
> really "got" gliding, being a die'd in the wool power chap. Too much down
> time for me.
>
> I'd recommend the NPPL M
>
> David

Hmm. Sunday, I went to the glider field (H07 in IL) around 10 am,
preflighted my glider, got in line for a tow, and 15 minutes later
released at 1500' agl after about 2 minutes on tow, then flew a 200
mile XC in about 5 hours, exploring the south Illinois countryside
under beautiful Cumulus clouds while practicing for a glider race next
week. Ended up landing at a nice airport (KGRE) 12 miles away from
where I took off (day died a bit early and I pushed a little too
hard), called my friends, and they drove my trailer over so I could
derig my glider and get back to the clubhouse for adult beverages and
postflight BS session.

Great way to spend a Sunday afternoon.

If you want to travel, do it in a stinkpot - sorry, airplane. If you
want to fly, do it in a glider!

By the way, if you are in Michigan next week, stop by the Ionia
airport and check out the glider races.

Kirk
(lots of hours in both)

By spending a significant amount of time at the field, one sees many good
and bad takeoffs and landings. It's possible to learn a great deal just by
observing and discussing with your clubmates.

By pitching in to help rig and derig gliders - the club's and the other
private pilots who keep their ships at the field - one can learn how they
differ and what one might want to eventually buy.

Yes, I've had those days where I only flew for 20 minutes... or not at all.
With an hour drive both ways, I was into it about for 2 years before my
day's soaring time exceeded my drive time!

In my experience, those that expect to show up, fly, and go home do not get
deeply into the sport because they don't learn enough to make the commitment
to truly learn to soar. I decided from the beginning that if I was going to
be a pilot I'd better give it my all in order to be safe and proficient.

"Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
...
> Dan G wrote:
>> On Jul 8, 6:23 pm, Peter > wrote:
>>> Rob McDonald > wrote
>>>
>>>> My experience with soaring is that you are always doing something when
>>>> you
>>>> are not flying. Socializing with club members is part of the
>>>> experience,
>>>> and much more common in my experience than in power-plane flying clubs.
>>> The social scene seems to be a way of life. It's OK if you want that,
>>> not OK if you don't. But one needs to be clear that this is the
>>> choice. I looked into gliding and it was obvious one would spend the
>>> whole weekend hanging around.
>>
>> I think it depends on where you're flying. I understand that in the US
>> you can book lessons with instructors and turn up a set time, fly, and
>> go home again.
>>
>> In the UK you get instruction for free but have to spend the whole day
>> on a cold field being bored for twenty minutes of flying. In theory
>> you can entertain yourself by doing some other jobs e.g. helping
>> launch gliders, driving winch retrieve etc. but if you do that people
>> will quickly come to expect it of you, and you'll rapidly find
>> yourself part of a small group which does all the work while everyone
>> else shirks.
>>
>> And people wonder why UK gliding is shrinking faster than the
>> icecaps...
>>
>> A couple of clubs have got their arses into gear and introduced
>> booking systems and are indeed reaping the results (more members
>> flying than they know what to do with), but those clubs are very much
>> in the minority (introducing something new implies the old system was
>> inadequate, and it's very hard for people to admit that they were
>> inadequate).
>>
>>
>> Dan
>>
> Actually not a bad system for learning. Naturally it all depends on your
> available time and the level of your incentive, but I'm one instructor who
> believes strongly in the concept of "hanging around the field" as one of
> the strongest learning tools in aviation.
> Doing this, you soon pick up on how things are done and why. You also see
> first hand the result of things tried, done, and not done. You learn
> fairly fast just who knows what they are doign and who doesn't.
> All in all, hanging around the field can pay off in HUGE unpaid for
> dividends for those with the time to do it.
> Dudley Henriques

On Jul 8, 4:37 pm, Cubdriver <usenet AT danford DOT net> wrote:

> Body shape is also a consideration. I had a friend in that weight
> range (250 lb) who wanted to take lessons, but the Cub was out of the
> question because he couldn't get the stick back to full-stall.

And a word of warning re gliders: the training gliders that we fly at
our club allow for max. 110kgs in either front or back seat - similar
in the (once) popular K13s, with total payloads lower (e.g., around
167kgs for the 13).

That said, there are lots of clubs around London:

http://www.gliding.co.uk/findaclub/ukmap.htm